Curse

Cathode_Reborn · Jun 27, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

I disagree with this to some extent. Let's forget about the average player and just take good players and good teams. You can be a good ursan team, holding aggros, chaining kd, etc. You can also be a good non-ursan team. Last I check, and I must admit it was a little while so I could be wrong, a good ursan team will clear certain areas faster than a good non-ursan team.

If a build that can outdo Ursan is that shocking to you (

), you've probably been playin your Mes way too much. A CoP team SHOULD be able to beat Ursan everywhere when it comes to speed. So why don't people run it? The thing with Ursan is.......you max your Norn title, you do that stupid-easy quest that gives you the skill then bam....you're set. CoP is only one skill - some people will find it challenging to fill in the blanks. Ursan holds your hand and gives you the build. The way a good CoP should work is slapping on the Mes hex before you get aggro, then poof....the whole mob blows up by a sync'd CoP. As I said, Ursan is the Sway of pve - powerful, but can be outdone though the better options require coordination.....somethin pug's don't want.

Also, a "good non-ursan" team is really not specific at all....

Lady Lozza · Jun 27, 2008, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

If a build that can outdo Ursan is that shocking to you (

), you've probably been playin your Mes way too much. A CoP team SHOULD be able to beat Ursan everywhere when it comes to speed. So why don't people run it? The thing with Ursan is.......you max your Norn title, you do that stupid-easy quest that gives you the skill then bam....you're set. CoP is only one skill - some people will find it challenging to fill in the blanks. Ursan holds your hand and gives you the build. The way a good CoP should work is slapping on the Mes hex before you get aggro, then poof....the whole mob blows up by a sync'd CoP. As I said, Ursan is the Sway of pve - powerful, but can be outdone though the better options require coordination.....somethin pug's don't want.

Also, a "good non-ursan" team is really not specific at all....

Do I find it shocking that another team could beat ursan? No. What I said was last I checked that was not the case.

I say a good non-ursan team because some builds work better on certain maps. My understanding is the CoP build will fell Urgoz faster than ursan, but what I said was "most" areas. Another example: take a horde of undead. Smiters can smite through them faster than, well I'd imagine anything else.

I've been keeping an eye on the "fastest elite area times" threads that have been going around and with the exception of urgoz I'm pretty sure that ursan takes the cake for everything - not necessarily by much, and it is not necessarily a reason to play it. However if we are to define over-powered as "fastest to do x" then ursan (from the evidence at hand) is more over-powered than CoP.

Longasc · Jun 27, 2008, 06:59 AM // 06:59

I would like to say that I disagree with the OP on his evaluation of classes and builds and that he should become a bear and go back to his cave.

I knew there was a reason why people prefer heroes & henchmen, there it is!

Nemesis of God · Jun 27, 2008, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Monks have HB, all other professions have Ursan.

obsidian ectoplasm · Jun 27, 2008, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemesis of God

Monks have HB, all other professions have Ursan.

But Ursan is Shit lol

Avarre · Jun 27, 2008, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

I disagree. When it comes to PvE skills it is completely valid to comment on the rank rise the SoI gives to non-maxed tracks. Why? Not everyone grinds, not everyone CAN grind (ie they don't have the time/inclination to do so). Since not everyone therefore has access to the rank at the highest level, the usefulness of SoI is immeasurable for many players. Remember rank is not like attribute points, where not getting those final 30 are a choice (one or two attribute ranks) is a choice.

Not what I'm talking about or what's important. A SoI build at maximum effectiveness will fail compared to a bar with another elite at maximum effectiveness. Rank is exactly like attribute points, it is the player's choice on whether to get them or not. The fact that one is more time-consuming is irrelevant.

Quote:

When running a mesmer with 3 pve skills from different title tracks SoI really is over-powered. Hell, take arcane mimicry and an SS hero and you have SS at 16 soul-reaping too.

You can max the title tracks without SoI and have almost the same firepower on any character. It's unfair to make an analysis of SoI at full attribute versus PvE skills with less-than-max rank, because anyone can get those skills to max.

Having SoI makes it easier to run PvE skills without grind, but in the long run it's a bad elite to have. You can say, somewhat rightly, SoI might be good for a new player who has no titles, but if you're comparing the strengths of builds overall then you should assume them used at maximum capability.

Quote:

SoI has made many combo builds possible. Combo builds that are incredibly over-powered in a team play environment - evne if that team is just hh.

Such as?

Anyways, to talk about overpower, someone paying attention to balance discussions over the last few years would know that aside from direct power, one of the components of skill design is that they reward skill. Diversion, for example, is a great skill which is incredibly powerful in the hands of a good player and useless when used by a poor one. Builds like SF and RaO were troublesome because the power of the builds was not proportionate to the skill required to run them.

Skills with conditions (RoF, interrupts, Bulls Strike etc) all tend to reward players who can meet those conditions consistently in the skill use. Most of the PvE skills, however, have the only condition 'grind this title' in order to get massive power, and that allows horrible players to have overpoweredness at their fingertips. This problem is especially noticeable in classes where the most successful form of play is one-dimensional (DPS spam), hence why PvE is considered so easy. All this aside, it's not really the problem of why some classes have better builds for PvE.

Some classes are going to have skills that don't fit into the structure of PvE. Mesmers aren't built for raw damage or damage reduction, which is what matters in PvE the most. So they aren't going to have that many builds that are 'overpowered'. The addition of PvE skills that any class can use without attributes might give Mesmers a boost in effectiveness, but considering anyone with a secondary can use them equally effectively they're not really a Mesmer-centric skill, and claiming Mesmers became a better class as a result of it is false.

The most powerful classes are going to be those that lend themselves to raw numbers. Warrior and Paragon DPS, Monk healing power, Necro energy are all some examples which apply to make ridiculous PvE builds.

fenix · Jun 27, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Mesmers have CoP Spike teams. Even before Ursan the DVDF Guild cleared all four area's of Domain of Anguish using all Mesmer teams.

Individually I would agree the Mesmer can't compare to others classes soloing, but in groups they do seem to do well.

1 skill does not mean the class is any good. Your example is bad, because the DVDF Mesmer teams are a big joke. Everyone can do that, with any class, and do just as well. Just because you can bring HEAPS of Mesmers doesn't mean it's practical. Mesmers by themselves are mostly unnecessary in PvE the way people play today. A group of them is just a waste of time.

upier · Jun 27, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

When running a mesmer with 3 pve SPELLS from different title tracks SoI really is over-powered.

First of all - fixed a bit.
Second of all - It's actually the exact opposite.
It's PvE skills that destroy SoI builds.
Problem 1:
There are a bunch of PvE skills out there that are GODLY even when not maxed.
Have 5ish (just by completing the game and turning in the book) in Norn - and Finish Him and You Move Like A Dwarf are insanely sweet! Just because they aren't JUST damage - but rather have additional effects. (KD, DW, cripple.)
(Heck, even CoP will be sweet with just 7/8ish in SS. If you have 6 people gang-banging a foe - the extra 30 damage of max rank (+1) won't really matter.)
Problem 2:
When filling up half your skillbar with PvE skills (3+rez - or just 3 if you like) - you still have 200 attribute points to spend on 4(5) skills. Which means you can max out two lines (which removes the need for SoI) - and if you can't find 4(5) skills in those two lines you'd want to use - then there is something seriously wrong!
Problem 3:
SoI means you can't bring AP.
The simple fact that you do 30 more damage doesn't outweigh that I can do my (X-30) damage more often.

Seriously - don't waste the insanity that is a AP+chaos nukes+PvE skills for something as average as SoI.
You aren't doing the class any favours in doing so.

I D E L E T E D I · Jun 27, 2008, 09:53 AM // 09:53

I agree with you in the way that SY Spammers need a hit, but that aside. Everyone can play Sabway. Monks are just as overpowered as a SY spammer if you play them right and you arent a failure of a monk. And before you tell me i have no idea what i am talking about. I have pulled my monk through LG and LV with ease. Lastly Rangers arent for big damage, they are a pressure/shutdown class. You are just not playing the ranger correctly.

upier · Jun 27, 2008, 10:53 AM // 10:53

The reasoning (paraphrased of course):

Quote:

Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I

CLASS X isn't for big damage, it's for a ACTIVITY Y. You are just not playing the CLASS X correctly.

is what bad players use.

Foes in PvE want to die. If you aren't helping them die fast - you are playing the game wrong.

Tutis Evito · Jun 27, 2008, 11:25 AM // 11:25

BHA+Poison+Epidemic = owned

kostolomac · Jun 27, 2008, 11:27 AM // 11:27

As a mesmer I let my heroes do the killing , while I make sure that those big bad guys and nasty spells don't hurt them. AP is nice but I feel like I'm running ursan when i play it. SoI isn't my thing since I'm not a fan of illusion in pve.

the_jos · Jun 27, 2008, 11:55 AM // 11:55

The thing I notice a lot is how people tend to look at what they consider great individual builds without considering the team those builds are played in.
When saying ursan is good people mean an ursan team is good. Ursan on an individual player isn't that effective.
CoP spike team is awesome, but an individual CoP mesmer can be replaced by another profession.

It's not about the individual build unless it's a solo build.
The moment other players/heroes are involved one has to consider the total team build and not how awesome the individual build is.

FalconDance · Jun 27, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40

The thing that struck me about the OP's stance is that he/she stated something about why should he/she play a profession that wasn't the 'most powerful' (badly paraphrased).

If all you want is to be the Ultimate Hero all by yourself, please stay with one of your self-vetted professions. While rangers and mesmers (and others) may not have the raw stopping power of a fully riled up warrior or the righteous fervor of a singing paragon, they both can be and are valuable members of a TEAM.

I've had a ranger for nearing three years now - and am still asked to bring her along in parties for her skill in accurately pulling, swift poisoning/softening/dispatch of key foe (which does confuse the H/H if that's all you're using), etc. For fun I set her up with a Thumper build (not the 'approved' version and her pet, also nearly 3, is not Dire) and set her off in the Jade Sea to see what she could do. No deaths except for the foe and wondrously amusing, efficient-at-the-kill time was had by all on the appropriate team

.

My current mesmer is only two years old and the second of her family to have joined the ranks of GW - and still asked to join parties where foe are particularly difficult due to casting ability. Nothing quite like the stylish flutter of a competent mesmer to back an enemy caster or a pesky warrior down a peg or three. Typically she runs straight Illusion (playing around with Migraine and Conjure Nightmare at the moment), and the pain she inflicts is anything BUT illusionary.

Are either of these characters OMG powerful or Uber-Perfect? Hell no. They fulfill their purpose admirably and with efficient aplomb.

(And yes, I have one of every profession - actually, two monks. In three years, I have come to know and appreciate the various strengths and weaknesses of each profession. Typically I do not play the cookie cutter builds because, well, I prefer to conjure my own builds - sometimes loosely based on the concepts behind cc builds - for each area or set of foe.)

Step up and think for yourself. If all you have to base your "only this profession or this one is the "best" or "most powerful", then you are not only shorting yourself, you are insulting everyone else who has ever bothered to think outside the wiki box.

upier · Jun 27, 2008, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

Step up and think for yourself. If all you have to base your "only this profession or this one is the "best" or "most powerful", then you are not only shorting yourself, you are insulting everyone else who has ever bothered to think outside the wiki box.

I don't see why stating that something doesn't work as good as something else would be bad. If it doesn't - then it doesn't.
But that does not mean that a player can't choose to run the sub-par option.
The option remains sub-par in terms of working as nicely as something else - but it might be above godly in terms of the player's enjoyment or whatever reason the player chose to run it for.

odly · Jun 27, 2008, 03:50 PM // 15:50

It's too bad that (even HM) PVE doesn't have any (? or very very few) area's/missions that scream "Interupt/Disable". I wouldn't want to "need" a mesmer/interupt ranger everywhere, but it would certainly benefit the variety of the game if they were really outstanding for some area's.

Give us a few more fights were we are up against decent protection and healing. All PvE is basically is about doing as much damage as possible to kill fast while your healers keep you alive.

Of the top of my head I can remember only a few occations where I wished I had a good mesmer with me. (Willa + Sarlic in old prophesies days f.e.)

I D E L E T E D I · Jun 27, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The reasoning (paraphrased of course):
is what bad players use.

Foes in PvE want to die. If you aren't helping them die fast - you are playing the game wrong.

According to your statement, Anet should balance all Professions to match the damage a Dlash War can do amirite?

MithranArkanere · Jun 27, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Yeah, if 4 professions have a 'god mode' build that works in many areas, all should have at least one working in some areas.

Bryant Again · Jun 27, 2008, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Yeah, if 4 professions have a 'god mode' build that works in many areas, all should have at least one working in some areas.

You sure? I'd much rather that no one had a god mode build.

upier · Jun 27, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I

According to your statement, Anet should balance all Professions to match the damage a Dlash War can do amirite?

Balance?
PvE?
That warped my fragile little mind!